Courage Is Built Here: Leading, Healing, and Building Spaces That Transform

What does courageous leadership look like in today's world of burnout, disconnection, and constant change?

In this episode of Breakthrough Conversations with Rhoda & Co., Rhoda sits down with author, speaker, and leadership expert Justine Froelker to discuss authentic leadership, resilience, and building cultures rooted in connection and belonging.

Together, they explore the Courage Is Built Here™ framework, the importance of doing your own work as a leader, and how organizations can create environments where people and performance thrive.

Whether you're leading a team, an organization, or yourself, this conversation offers practical insights on leading with courage and authenticity.

Connect with Justine:
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Website: justinefroelker.com
Email: justine@justinefroelker.com
Connect with Rhoda:
www.therhodaexperience.com

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey, what's your secret? You got the kind of that leads to it's beach that could be model multitasking.

SPEAKER_03 0:08

Welcome back to Breakthrough Conversations with Rhoda and Company. So today's conversation, it goes deeper. This is about leadership healing and the courage it takes to do both. So the title of this episode is Courage is Built Here: Leading, Healing, and Building Spaces That Transform. I am joined by Justine Froker, an author, speaker, and corporate trainer with more than 25 years of experience helping individuals and organizations lead with courage, resilience, and authenticity. All words that I love. All things that I love. And Justine is the creator of the Courage Is Built Here framework, which equips leaders and teams to build self-awareness, emotional resilience, and cultures rooted in connection and belonging. Ooh, we all need, I need, I need this framework. She's also an award-winning author of more than a dozen books, and she brought me some today. Thank you. And has taken her message to stages across the country. And she's delivered not one, but two TEDx talks, including the Donut Effect, Owning Our Stories and The Permission of the End, where she challenges us to own our stories, embrace complexity, and lead from a place of truth and courage. And now Justine is expanding that impact even further with Monarch Metals. Yeah. Which I got to see a retreat space designed for restoration, reflection, and real transformation. So today we're talking about the intersection of leadership and healing. What organizations are missing when it comes to burnout and culture, and why courage is not optional if you want to lead well. Just then welcome to the show. Dang, that was good. Thank you. That's all about you. And you are amazing. And I remember uh I first we were uh paired up together at an all-girls school here in St. Louis, and we spoke, and that was my first exposure to you. So I was like, oh, she's that was years ago at this point. It was it was at least 10. I yeah, I have no idea. Yeah, I know. I love it. Thank you for having me. Thank you for saying yes. Of course. I really appreciate it. So, Justine, you spent over two decades in mental health and leadership development. What shaped your path into this work?

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Yeah. It's so people always ask, like, how do you get here? And I so I'm one of the I I went all in, I was psyched the whole way, right? Like that's what I went to school for. And it was because of, so I was a dancer growing up, grew, grew up in small town Iowa, like really small town. And um, I I actually had two back surgeries in high school. And so I was misdiagnosed for a year and a half before they found a broken back on a year old x-ray. And so, two surgeries, freshman year, senior year, and a body cast, six months each surgery. Wow. And so, but in that misdiagnosis time, the the first misdiagnosis was this was early 90s, so they called it conversion hysteria. So psychosomatic, your brain's making it up, nothing's wrong.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

Right.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

And they made me go see a sports psychologist. Interesting. And so I would have only been like 11, 12. And I remember thinking, because she taught me how to visualize the pain outside of my body. She didn't know I had a broken back. Right. Um, and so I remember talking, like, what you do is cool. And I actually really love people and who they are and what makes them who they are. And so once graduation comes, like I was like, peace out, don't want to be a farmer's wife. I'm gonna go to the big city of Kirksville, Missouri. Right. Seriously, like true and say, and I studied psychology right away and I started my career there right away. I um worked in substance abuse right away, starting at 19. And um, then when I moved here to St. Louis for my graduate degree, I started working with clients who struggle with eating disorders. And then I was in private practice for 11 years. And so eight years ago now, um near it'll be the end of this month, will be the end of seven years. Um, I I really I felt drawn to have more impact and to reach more people. And what better way to do that than to bring my gifts and these skills to the workplace? I mean, we spend more time at work awake than we do at home with the people who love us the most. And um, and especially as a therapist in private practice, right? What were people complaining about? Work, like their stress, even though they had a long list of root issues that we need to talk about. And so I took that risk with the support of my husband to what's it look like to build this speaking facilitation business and leave this thriving private practice terrifying. Um, and so that's what I really have been doing, bringing these essential human skills to work.

SPEAKER_03 5:05

Yes, that's a beautiful story. And I remember you sharing it when we were at the and you talk a lot about courage. Yep. And well, who better to talk about it? Because you've been having to leverage courage your entire life. Pretty much. Can you imagine you're you have a broken back and they're telling you it's mental and you need to imagine the pain outside of the body? Did it work?

SPEAKER_01 5:29

Yeah. Um, actually, like I did, like I because I loved dancing, right? Like, and so like I did it, I did it through the pain, which also let's be honest with ourselves, and it's part of courage is built here. How much of that actually taught me to disembody this body? Right. And like live outside of her and not listen to the cues, all of those things. And so it's been I there's so many people like you can take even just that part of my story so many, like, because I learned really back then what empathy is and what empathy is not. Right. Because how do you really how do you sit beside a a young girl trapped in a body cast and choose empathy? Right. Really, what most people felt was pity, they felt sorry for me, right? Which also made me feel really even more alone.

SPEAKER_03 6:18

So true. That is so true. So for those that are pretty like visual, and you know, sometimes some words catch on and they become the new word of the year or the buzzword, the word courage. Yeah, some people may not even know what that looks like. Yeah. How would you describe what it looks like in action?

SPEAKER_01 6:35

So the Latin root word of courage actually means to tell your story with your whole heart. And so for me, courage is built here is like I want to teach you the skills, tools, and language, the actual practices of how to receive it, how to live it, how to model it for other people. Right. Uh, those those pieces and people will ask me a lot, like you called it courage is built here, where's here? And well, here's in your head. Right. It's in your head, like it's in your head, it's like in the stories that you tell yourself. It's it is, of course, in growth mindset. It's I do, it has to be more than just positive affirmations. You have to actually like dig up the weeds of the poison ivy and get to root cause. Uh, but it's all it's built here. It's in our heart, our soul, our spirit, whatever you want to call it. But most of all, it's it's built here. Right. Like this is where courage is built. It's in seeking to understand people and actually having real authentic connection, not what's really become transactional. Like people are very desperate for real right now. Right. And people are also really not okay. And so courage is for me that space of like, what's it look like to show up as you and choose to create the space where other people can show up as them. That's so true. Because now we're in it together.

SPEAKER_03 7:50

Yes. And that's what we were meant for. Right. So uh people check on me quite often because of the season I'm in in my life and I'm looking for a job while I don't have one. Yep. And a friend of mine from my old place of employment, she periodically texts. So she texts me the other day and she said, How are you doing? And I normally respond, I'm great, I'm standing on faith, I'm this, I'm that. And I was honest this time. I say, to be honest, I am fighting depression. Yep. And I'm fighting um the desire to not show up. Like when people are inviting me to things, I have to press and just go anyway, yeah, instead of making up an excuse not to go. And she thanked me for being honest.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:36

But because she has consistently reached out, yeah, I say she's someone who cares and someone I can really be honest with. And that took courage for me to admit that to someone.

SPEAKER_01 8:48

I actually I got one of those texts the other day, like, how are you doing? And I'm I'm on, I really want to know the answer. And she got a like a balling voice message. I was like, You asked. Yes. I'm not in a great place. And I knew that you would be a soft landing spot. And I knew you actually cared. It wasn't, and I do it's interesting. I think like even that, like that it, if it is that friend, that like you know you can rely on them to check in with you. You also know because of your relationship with them and who they are, that they're really asking.

SPEAKER_03 9:17

Yes. Yes, they're really really want to know. Exactly, because they see you. Yes, it's not surface. That's what it's all about. It's not surface. Yep. That's right. So, Justine, for leaders who may be listening, what problems, because you work a lot with a lot of different companies, or organizations bringing to you right now?

SPEAKER_01 9:36

Um, there's a lot. There's so many ways. I think one of the most common ones are like, we're what's the conversation you're avoiding? Because almost everybody has at least one that they're avoiding. Uh, five generations in the workplace. That's a really, really big one. Uh I know you want me to be empathic and I just need people to do their freaking jobs.

SPEAKER_02 9:57

Right.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

That's one. Like we somehow along the way have like we think that empathy and accountability are mutually exclusive. Right. And they're not. They're they're totally related. Right. I really for me though, it's I I've been in a lot of rooms lately. People really just they're not okay.

SPEAKER_03 10:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

They really are not all right. Um, and they're probably being asked to do more with less. Technology is changing so fast, and they're struggling to understand it, or they feel threatened by it, or they don't, they're they're just not trained on it. They don't know enough about it. So there's all of these unknowns. I at the end of the day, though, what's really happening, and it's not a popular word at all. They're gonna organizations are gonna call it change, or sometimes they love to spin it as transformation. Yes. Uh, and really what I believe it is, it's just grief. Yes. Like, we do need to change things need to change. We are we're never going back. People are never gonna be the same. We have not even begun to see the the ramifications of the pandemic, in my opinion. Right. And so, like, what you're really talking about is grief. Like, I miss how it used to be. I you turned out, like, you made a decision that I I don't understand. And so you actually turned out to be someone that I didn't think you were. Right. And I feel disappointed or sad by that, like, or there's been layoffs. Like, it's just freaking grief. Right. And but people really don't want to talk about that. And yet what I find is like when you name it, you can move through it.

SPEAKER_03 11:30

Right.

unknown 11:31

Right.

SPEAKER_03 11:31

You know how you understand what the uh cure might be.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

Like, I like all the it'll be this like laundry list of symptoms, right? And I'm always like, well, what's it really about? Right. What's the root cause? Right. There's always a root cause. And I do like there is a piece right now that I think a lot of leaders, but also just the people that they're leading, they haven't lost their abilities. They have not lost their skills. They've lost themselves. Yes. Like they've lost the joy in it. They don't know how, like, how did I like this is not who I thought I'd be. Right. How did I get here and how do I get back? Right.

SPEAKER_03 12:11

It's like this misalignment piece. And that by itself, that misalignment breeds a form of grief itself. Yeah. The other thing I've observed is two things. One, when you spoke about um people assuming that when you say be empathetic, that means I can't hold you accountable. I'm going because I'm empathetic and because I care about you and your success, I am holding you accountable. Exactly. So you can't say you care about someone and not hold them accountable. Who wants friends that's not going to tell them the truth? Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

To be like, uh that that was not good. Right. Like you screwed that up. And I know it's not who you are. Like, how do we get you back? Right. Empathy without accountability is avoidance. And accountability without empathy is often cruel.

SPEAKER_03 12:58

Yes, very. The other thing I've observed is I know everybody's talking about AI, AI, but the role of social media. Social media, and it impacts my mental health. So I have to step away from it. And I'm learning, okay, we weren't designed and meant to absorb and have access to so much information. Everything. Everything that's right.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

And everyone's opinion about everything that's also like actually not informed.

SPEAKER_03 13:29

Right. So you're scrolling, you go from laughing at a funny video to rage at some verdict that we feel is unfair, correct? To some incident of some racism or a fight. Or violence. It's just shift the shift to shift. I was like, I want off this train. I know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Well, and also like, I think you also like, oh, that video was nice. And then you're like, was it real?

SPEAKER_03 13:54

Right. Was it was that a person?

SPEAKER_01 13:57

Like, is that was that actual right? And we were never, we were never meant to live this way. It's such a gift. Like I have no doubt that half your audience is watching this on the little computer that they hold on their phone. Like, I love that. And we were never meant to live this way. And so I think it is like part of courage for me is fine, what's it look like to do that well? Like right now, I deleted Instagram app for my phone. It has made my life such a pain. Like, especially because I run a business. Yes. And social media is a big part of it. Part of it, right? And I can't do some of the things because I don't have the app. And I've tried every tool to not scroll. And I can't do it. And so like I just had to delete the app. I did that too during the election season. And it was just like, and my mental health is better.

SPEAKER_03 14:44

So much better.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

I'm I'm actually watching the things that fill me up or reading.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

Yes.

unknown 14:50

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Exactly. Playing with the dogs. Right. It's versus, oh my gosh, it's been 20, 40 minutes because it's designed to keep you on there. And so I think one of the other hard parts, especially about being an entrepreneur, but I think this would be for any leadership. When you I use social media to serve my community, I I want, I share the courage work to help you keep it top of mind because chances are you just saw a video of mine or you saw a keynote. Right. Or maybe you did attend the training, but like I want to help you keep it top of mind. I think one of the hardest parts though, too, is like, I can't rely on the algorithm for it to actually show it what you are. Like you've signed up to follow me. Right. The algorithm won't show it to you though.

SPEAKER_03 15:31

It depends on where you're spending your time and viewing. And if you're spending your time on those goofy videos, that's what you're gonna get. That's what you're gonna exactly. That is so true. The algorithm is not aligned either with the type of people we signed up to follow. That is so true.

SPEAKER_01 15:48

Because I even one of the things that I've been trying, it's like, because I I do courage Tuesday videos every Tuesday. I've been making them longer because YouTube is a isn't like that's where you can maybe at least try to monetize. Like, I don't know, and the algorithm is a little bit more reliable. Well, I can't post long videos on Meta. Right. They're not shown to anyone. They literally will say, your video will not be shown to anyone unless it's under three minutes. And so now it's like, okay, do I just post the long video on LinkedIn and YouTube, but then take the real and post it on Meta? But then you have to ask people to do an extra step to go. And it's like, everything is actually built against us. Right, right. I'm just trying to serve. Like, I don't know. Yes. And so it is this weird, this weird spot of like, am I doing things in service of being okay and at the cost of my business?

SPEAKER_03 16:44

Right. I yeah. Sometimes it feels like that. I understand because I'm in a similar boat. And the one thing I do try to do, I'll go out there to post about our women's retreat. Absolutely. Um, I'll post, I'll say to myself, I need to put some positive out in the world. So I'll post something positive. Absolutely. But then I'll still when you get out there, I'll scroll a few. Your thumb just goes. And then I end up, it's so hard for me not to respond to some of the ignorant comments. But I do it with kindness. I'm always kind. But but I said I'm not gonna respond. The point, the reason why we ended up that we talked, we were talking about courage and the how people aren't doing well. And I think that social media plays into it, plays a big part of this. For sure. For sure. Because you're also only getting a snippet. Right. So your courage is built here framework. Walk us through that.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Yeah. So courage is built here has five pathways. Pathway one is feel it all, how to feel our feelings and not be our feelings. Right. And social media is a great place to like perfect example of people being their feelings. Right. Um, but that pathway, we start with values. So, like, who are you? What are your two deep roots? You only get two core values. Like, what are your deep roots in the soil of what I call like the human foundations of uh love, connection, courage, resilience, things like that. And so we start with values and we walk into emotional well-being, because most of us don't really know how to feel our feelings well. Um, and then pathway two is embody again how to take care of ourselves. Cause I I really found the more rooms I was in with any level of leadership, it I even if you don't manage people, right? Very few people know how to take care of themselves. They're not getting good and enough sleep. They are they don't have routine, they they don't drink enough water, they don't like just all these things. And so I I had, I think it was the therapist of me to bring that in. Right. Um, pathway three is be full of you, how to show up authentically. So that's the whole vulnerability, self-compassion piece. And then pathway four is the really big, it's the big chunk. It's love others well, which some people get really squishy about that. They're like, oh my god, I don't want to love people at work. So I always tell them, like, if that's too squishy of a word, you can shift it to care, dignity, respect. Like you're a human being. Yeah. And I spend 40 to sometimes 80 hours a week here. Like, I hope you care about the people you're at the end of the day with you. Yeah. And so that pathway is like, how do we live with, relate to, and and lead others well? So it's a really big chunk. Like, so we we start with shame resilience. So, like, how does shame show up in you? How's it come out of you? How's it show up in our organizations and in our relationships? We, of course, talk about empathy and accountability. We operationalize trust and really talk about how we actually build and also repair trust when it's been broken because it's going to be broken. And we talk about feedback, curious language, hard conversations. So it's a really big chunk of the curriculum. And then Pathway Five really kind of is the culmination all of all of it and really ends up on how do we I help you restory your story in order to store restore your courage. I love it. So we've got to like rewrite a lot of the beliefs that you have because they are not true. Yes. And so we're gonna rewrite them and restory them. And so um it's I the the full training is a full three days, which it's a big ask for people, and there's nothing to cut.

SPEAKER_03 20:16

But it's worth it. And so the next question that comes naturally to mind for me is organizations that embrace this framework, what stands out about their leadership, their culture versus others like that?

SPEAKER_01 20:29

Well, not every organization uh is able to embed it, right? Like I it's often that I get the call that like our managers really need you, like they're the ones dealing with all the people issues, and then I get to have that conversation of, yeah, they report to you though.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

And they're gonna have a framework and language, and you're gonna ask them to use it. How how do they have conversations with you? Right if you don't have it too. And so um, it's been interesting. Like, I whenever I have an organization reach out, like I always tell like what I want you to do is the full training. That's the most impactful, and it's the biggest bang for your buck and your investment. Uh, and then we like talk about how to like support you to embed it. Usually what I get is we need a culture change. Help us and fix us in a one-hour keynote. Right. And then so then we get to have that conversation. And so I'm usually able, it's wild, like I'm usually able to help them. Like, what would it look like? What could it look like to maximize your budget by what if it's four workshops throughout the year? What if it is sending your leadership to the full training? And then we do a keynote for everybody. But then because the leaders have been through the whole training, we get to do accountability. I help them embed it because it will embed faster and deeper when it trickles down from the top. Yes. I agree. It's a hard sell. Yes. It's been hard. Like um, because the question's always well, what's our return on investment? It's like, well, it's not automatic and it's gonna be your it's your people.

SPEAKER_03 22:01

Yeah, it's gonna show up. It does show up. Your culture is gonna show up in your metrics around employee engagement, leader. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

It is, it's one of the things like um in my open trainings that so that I hold myself and fill myself so like anyone can come. And I think I have some organizations that they prefer to send small teams to those open trainings rather than have their own training. Right. Like I have one manufacturing company they love sending a good they're like we love sitting next to people that are not in our field who look different than us. And because really what you learn the most is you too. Right. Oh my gosh. Yes. I don't like you have that same issue. Yeah like because we have way more in common than we don't um and so it's that piece of like what's it look like to then help them actually walk it out.

SPEAKER_03 22:49

And I'm a huge fan of scaling. So let's create small pockets of magic. Really you don't even have to ever train 100% of the leaders. No you could train 30% of them and it's gonna have a really big impact. Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

And I really worked especially 2025 um was just it's a I don't know any facilitator that had an amazing year. Right. Like so it was a tough year. And so but I I really worked hard on creating this like suite of services a bunch of different price points some work that you can do on your own and so one of the things that like I I just had a conversation with an organization I was like what would it look like to send a small team of leaders that you like they want this. Maybe they're already practicing it in some ways but they need more tangible tools and more support. So they come to the full training there are catalysts and then they identify people who they they're not they don't get to train them but they could walk them through the online course I have a facilitation guide that they could meet with them like once a month or like run the group and talk about it like but you have these these catalysts within the organization that they they they're they're bought in right they want this they want to be part of building the culture because I do think part of it is like you're gonna have people in your culture that want to be part of building the great culture. You're gonna have some people that like they're gonna do their job.

SPEAKER_03 24:08

Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

Like they're not gonna damage the culture but they're not gonna build it right and then you're gonna have the people that are going to damage they think their job is to pull it down. And the worst part about it is we tend to focus almost all of our energy on that very small percentage. It's usually about 20%. Right.

SPEAKER_03 24:25

Yes so true so true.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

So let's talk about monarch meadows what is it and what inspired you to create yeah so Monarch Meadows is our corporate retreat space that my husband and I are building in Florescent. We're super excited and proud of it. So it I mean it's been a dream of mine for 10 years to have my own space. I have taught in some really terrible spaces and it matters natural light matters. It does the chairs you sit in matter color matters nature matters like it all matters especially when I'm asking you to come if if it is for the full training three days in a row to do really hard work. It's hard work and hard topics and so um we've always like we've dreamed about it for a long time like oh let's go drive around Defiance and look at maybe we could build a retreat space out here. And um we had purchased a property it's been three years ago and we did not know what we didn't know could not get the zoning uh lost a lot a lot of pride uh also financially and it was of course because this property was waiting for us and so um it is is actually a church that we're converting into a a training space we'll have conference rooms um a fellowship hall that's gonna be turned into like a vintage game room and dining hall and then we have right across the driveway a historic parsonage house that will be the retreat house that will be able to sleep four to seven or I'm sorry seven to nine people um and it sits on six acres that will be full of wildflowers and it's got a labyrinth in the back. It's beautiful I've seen it it's and I could see the vision and the work that you all are putting into it so like we like we're excited to welcome like even if it's your your leadership team and you're ready for your strategic your yearly strategic meeting um and you want to stay the night and you don't want to have to drive an hour outside of the city. It's it's right here. It's probably about 20 minutes away because that's St. Louis right um but also like what's it look like to welcome the community to rent it out for retreats I do think one of the things is like we're we got to embrace because even after you came and saw it like Chad was like I mean maybe we do change our plan and I was like I don't I we I think we have to embrace our identity we're not a conference center. Right. We are a small retreat space um we're not hosting a hundred women for a full day we just don't have enough toilets for that and we're not putting more in and so I think it will be fun like I've had multiple people like one person reached out she goes well what if I like want to rent the property and write my book and I was like I think that will be one of the hardest parts like you're probably not sharing you're probably you're renting the whole thing. Right. Right and so we've had some people say like what if you have like a winter rate because people in St. Louis they're not going to be outside in the winter they're not like you from Iowa like I'm outside in the winter but like and so it's like could you rent the house and the training space separately so we're like some of this is learning as we go um and also like bringing in people who have lots of ideas and different gifts than ours um to help us like have this space that really I think people will heal and transform in.

SPEAKER_03 27:28

Well I can tell you from um from a person who likes to host retreats yeah that St. Louis is lacking really in a space like yours.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 27:39

So when we're looking for space at least me and Shannon and I we don't want a conference room. We don't want a conference center. Like we could easily go book a room at Ameristar at a hotel that is so boring. The space is part of the experience we're trying to create and even ours we have a rule no technology no PowerPoints so every session or segment it's really engaging and inspiring and it's interactive.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

We don't want people turning looking at a presentation all day so what you're building is really needed and it's so unique that it was a church it has such a good aura already to and then the greenery the space you have oh it's gonna I I had a CEO he was like he goes Justine I think you need to be prepared like I think it's gonna be it's bigger than you he goes like we're tired of meeting in white black and gray conference rooms that are drenched in and concrete people really are tired of it and so and you just told me that like this place has color and all this funky vintage furniture that like I would never have it have in my house but I could go stay at yours I was like yep that's kind of that's the vibe. That orange couch does feel like it's made out of carpet because it's from the 70s and I love it.

SPEAKER_03 28:57

Yes it has a vibe a whole vibe so when people walk into your space you talked about color what transformation do you want them to experience I really it's that it's this soft landing spot to explore who you were really meant to be right like and so yes it's this it's it is this safe spot like the soft landing spot it's also energizing because in order to get back to who you were meant to be it's gonna be uncomfortable. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

And so like it there is some like people our house is also like mid-century modern full of color and people will always walk in and be like this is amazing I would never have it in my house but like I love it. And it's like and I I do think there's this weird I it's who I am but also in the space that I'm creating like I'm gonna give you permission to like literally be your weird like I want you to be that weird. I want you to like all those quirks all the gifts the the voice that you're given your full true identity for me the name that God calls you like I want you to rediscover that person and so this like funky place that you're like oh my gosh look at that that seating area is really cool. Like and wait a minute that house like built built into wait there's a labyrinth what are you gonna do with the labyrinth and then I can tell you how to use it right like it's so it's just this it's this tension between soft landing spot and it's not going to be easy.

SPEAKER_03 30:34

Right. I do want to push you out of a comfort zone because that's where growth is born. Right. And the space not only invites you to do that but it's kind of mimicking that in a sense it's in 2026 it's looking like and feeling like 1970 but it's this authentic self. Right. And so many of us don't even know who that person is. And I think it's so sad because when you don't show up as the person God intended you to you're not only depriving yourself you're depriving the rest of us of the gift of you. Yep it is and I had a leader tell me one time she said I want to coach you because there's no reason why you shouldn't be at the next level which was a C-suite as if everybody wants to be a C suite. And um and I said tell me more and she said well you are going to have to deny a part of yourself and she said I was always taught that you need to wear like black or blue and anybody knowing me know that that's not happening like I was like and I took that in and thought about it overnight and I called her the next day and I told her how very sad that was to me. I said well if that's what it takes girl I I don't even want it to fit the C-suite profile. I said I said I don't want it no no if I have to deny who I am so right that's true that retreat center is meant for that I've heard you say that people especially leaders need to do their own work. What does that actually mean?

SPEAKER_01 32:21

You can't give what you don't have period like I that that like if you are not forgiving yourself you're not gonna be able to forgive anyone else if you can't show up and follow through for yourself you really actually I mean you'll you think you are it what it has a wall it does it has an ending point like whether or not it's gonna be a your health or a relationship like something will have to give because you cannot give what you don't have. And so it's interesting like I think we we say like oh self-awareness and you got to lead yourself. Yes and part of that is like in order to turn toward one other one another we have to turn back toward ourselves. And so like it it is this constant circle that we truly it's not just my self work it's like also choosing to lean in and do that work with you and also saying like I want you to do this work with me. With me. Will you I want you to do it with me too so that we can like grow and move forward together.

SPEAKER_03 33:24

It's truly an inside out job. Oh for sure. Wow so this is confirming something for me I've started writing a leadership book. Love it a vision that the Lord gave me uh is titled Make Them Remember. It's the seven principles to build your leadership legacy the very first chapter and I'm not talking at them it's it's based baked into a story the very first chapter the very first principle is owning your story.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

Yep I was like this is so true we don't our stories impact how we lead and how we show up yeah and sometimes we tweak that story over time so true and take it so far from the truth of what it really was or like one of the other things I I've been really feeling called to like like my my posts on social media this week are pretty vulnerable and it's because like I kept feeling this like disconnect of like performative like people think it's actually like way bigger and better than it is. And it's like no I I'm really actually struggling really like business is it's tough right now. Like I know it is for a lot of people but like it's kind of it's scary tough right now. And so like I one of the things that God has really asked me to do like especially with Monarch Meadows he he keeps telling us like make the impossible look possible and of course we're gonna give him all the glory except I think so many of us not only do we tweak that story when we tell it we only tell the story when we're on the hilltop like after the harvest has come after the fruit is in our hand after God has delivered after we've gotten the promotion and and I'm not saying do we're not to share from our wounds like that do not share from your wounds because you're gonna end up bleeding out on people. Like you need to do the work to share from a scar. Right. And I still think that's still like what would it look like for more of us to share like no it's like it's kind of brutal I'm actually going to share this part that's hard and I know it's gonna be okay. I can't see how right now I know it will but I'm not gonna just tell you like oh it's really hard back there.

SPEAKER_03 35:32

Yeah that's a greater testimony in my opinion is a bigger impact in the moment this is what I'm living this is what I'm experiencing natural eye it looks impossible. By faith it will not remain this way and they get to see that turnaround.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

Yeah that's yeah I love that it's it is not like one of the things I just shared this in my entrepreneur group like all I keep hearing it's actually more of a faith based one which I love and so like all I keep hearing is keep going it's coming wait what exactly does keep going look like and like what's it and could you say when like we have specifics like when you keep talking give me some more specifics and it's there because also like I know that when we are in the struggle the wilderness whatever it is we have to give permission for stuff to be chiseled away yes for us to be refined into the person that can actually handle what's coming because if it comes before you're ready for it it will kill you.

SPEAKER_03 36:37

Yes that is so powerful what you just said yeah because and it doesn't make it easy though even when we're going through like in my scenario I keep saying why did this happen did I do something wrong to deserve like I just keep questioning and the Lord speaks very firm but quietly and say this had to come because of what's gone you haven't seen what's next. Yeah so so true so true. So just say what's one truth leaders avoid that's holding them back uh that I can't say the thing like I can't be transparent I can't be honest and like there there's a re we need boundaries.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

Like um I I I cannot tell you how many times I've especially told people at the top they need transparency. And that doesn't mean that you are telling them everything not appropriate not safe sometimes it just sounds like this is what I know and this is and it's what I can tell you. There's a whole lot that I can't and I know that that's hard. Right and you get to have the feelings that you have about it it doesn't mean that I can't that I can tell you that and I hope that we have enough trust between us that you can trust me with that.

SPEAKER_03 37:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

Right like that there's so much unspoken and lack of transparency and all that means is they're making stuff up. They are they make up their own stories. Right. And that's actually eroding even more at the trust and the culture.

SPEAKER_03 38:07

Yeah and then they take actions and make decisions based on these stories that they've told themselves. Yeah and I also think that they need permission to be transparent to that degree. That's true.

SPEAKER_01 38:20

That's very true that I I once had a a leader it was like a mixed group because HR department was in the room with and he's like he goes I I can't admit that I screwed it up and I definitely I've never said I'm sorry. And I was like I go do you think that that helps build trust with your people and um he was like I mean I'm I'm the boss like I'm supposed to like if I lose it everyone will lose it and I was like I really we're different people people actually you're probably building more trust with people when you say like screw that up right like we mess it up or like I know this is what we said we were gonna do we now have more information we actually need to pivot rather than just like pivoting and like people like what the hell I don't even know why. Right to be able like say like we didn't have this information or like actually it didn't work out the way we thought it would like what would that transparency be like in his HR raised a hand and he goes she goes and every time you don't own it I trust you even less that is so true. And you could just tell he was just like oh and she goes I like when you show me your humanity I know you actually care.

SPEAKER_03 39:24

That's right. You it's okay to be vulnerable and when you're vulnerable it makes me feel safe to be vulnerable. Exactly and guess what when I have in an environment where I have high trust I can perform at the top of my game for sure for sure yes yep I I wish that leaders would understand that just because you have a title doesn't mean that people are bringing their best sales and doing their best work right nope so if the company doing great you can be doing even better. 100% for sure for sure just seeing I could talk to you all day um but I'm gonna move to the rapid fire round I have these three questions I just want you to answer whatever comes to mind. One word that defines courageous leadership truth truth I love it a habit every leader should build immediately sounds too squishy but uh do the work to love yourself because then you can only then can you love others like you said earlier you can't give something you don't have I love that and one thing leaders need to stop doing today your work as your identity it's not right it's not your identity and two stop not saying the thing yes you just say it right say it yes awesome so you all that are listening you heard it from Justine Froker you heard it from Justine don't take my word for it yeah this was your energy is exceptional. Thank you it's amazing so you can't help but feel giddy I just love it.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

So you do a lot of things for a lot of people how can people find you what are the services you can offer them what are the problems you can help them solve so there one there's no shortage of just in content on all of the different platforms everything is just my name uh I have a lot of like different online course I have a free courage circle that we gather twice a month I've got um like a values workshop I have all the books like all there's where do you want to begin? Yes uh when it comes to whether or not you're a small business owner or you're elite I just had somebody she was like she she goes I finally asked my boss if I could do this training and he was like of course you can and we'll pay for it like and it was like just your company doesn't have to bring me in you could just come. Right and like you actually probably depending on the size of your organization have your own development budget. Yeah like so true what if you came like right and like and I offer scholarships and things like that but I think there's a piece that I if you are feeling like well your people at home get the worst of you or you've lost your joy and or you don't know how to get your values back in in your work that's what this work solves. That's really what it is. And so whether or not it's a keynote workshop training uh there's just lots of different ways like for me to design what your company or your small team needs or even like you as an individual for me to point you to like okay start with online course it's self-paced do that and if you love it like come to a full training or like bring me in or things like that. There's just I think one of the things that it kind of works against me is there's endless ways to do the work. Right. And at the same time I customize it because every team and business and leaders have different needs.

SPEAKER_03 43:04

Yeah so you're really good at meeting people where they are while also pushing them a little bit. Yeah yeah yeah that's awesome well just saying again thank you for saying yes this thank you was powerful you reminded us that leadership is not just about results it's about how we show up how we lead ourselves and how we create spaces where people can actually thrive so I love the work you're doing. Thank you uh especially with Monarch Metals I'm gonna be leveraging that space in the future because you're not just talking about change you're creating environments where it can actually happen. So for those that are listening if you want to connect with Justine everything is Justine. Yep everything's Justine Froker yes bring her into your organization or go to her as you heard her say we all have development budgets um within our departments or as individuals they normally give you a budget um and learn more about her retreats that are upcoming her courage circles that you do twice a month that I want to learn more about and we're gonna drop all her information in the show notes and to everyone listening courage is not something you wait for it's something you practice. I'll see you next time on Breakthrough Conversations with Rhoda and Company.

SPEAKER_00 44:21

Hey what's your secret you got the kind of athletes it could be model multitasking genius yeah you got it off hey what's your story the kick is from the 40 under forty and talk a practice in your high hill glory I can do it off